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Constitutional Convention: Introduction  The Constitutional Convention of February 1998

Federal Election October 2004:
Which Candidates Trust the People?

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Monday, 2 February 1998
Page 6

Mr MUIR- I move a motion to reflect proper gender balance. I move:

 

That the Convention elect a woman as a further deputy chairperson.

 

CHAIRMAN- Thank you, Mr Muir. Mr Jones, do you second the motion? Are there any speakers to that proposition?

 

Mr RUXTON- Mr Chairman, what does `gender balance' mean?

 

CHAIRMAN- The amendment is that the Convention elect a woman as a further deputy chairperson. Are there any further speakers?

 

Councillor TULLY- I think we need to clarify clause 24 of the standing orders, which says that neither the chairman or deputy chairman is entitled to vote, to make provision in relation to this motion that the additional appointed deputy delegate, if that is carried by this meeting, is in fact entitled to vote. The way in which that is worded could have the unintended consequence of denying that person the right to vote. Whilst I support that, I believe that that should be clarified in that amending motion.

 

CHAIRMAN- Mr Muir, I will give you a right of reply directly.

 

Ms HEWITT- That was the point I was going to make- as to whether that delegate would have the right to vote.

 

Ms RODGERS- While I am not a proponent of affirmative action, I would suggest that gender balance would mean two women and two men.

 

Mr JOHNSTON- I wish to speak against this motion, because instantly I can see this Convention moving away from the questions it was proposed that it handle: that is, whether Australia becomes a republic. We are not here to debate who is or is not chairman. I would tend to believe that, seeing that that has already been stated by the government, as you yourself have said, we as delegates have no power to alter or to add to the chairman's roles.

 

CHAIRMAN- Thank you, Mr Johnston. There being no further speakers, I call on Mr Muir to exercise his right of reply.

 

Mr MUIR- The appointment of chairman or chairpersons is a matter of substance. Under the rules of debate the chairpersons have a very material role in this Convention. If we are serious about any form of gender balance- and I am sure Mr Ruxton now understands what that means- we should ensure that a woman is appointed in that role. As you can see from the rules of debate, that is clear. I certainly accept the amendment proposed by Mr Paul Tully.

 

CHAIRMAN- Thank you, Mr Muir. The question is that the Convention elect a woman as a further deputy chairperson. I am not sure whether you added any qualification about voting or not. I presume you accept that she should have no vote.

 

Mr MUIR- I accept what Mr Tully moved.

 

CHAIRMAN- I do not think Mr Tully moved it technically. He just suggested that it created a dilemma and it was for you to resolve it.

 

Mr RAMSAY- I raise a point of order. I am sorry to interrupt again, sir, but I see this creating quite-

 

CHAIRMAN- I am afraid the speaker who moved the motion has responded; therefore, there is no further debate-

 

Mr RAMSAY- There is a point of order.

 

CHAIRMAN- Right. Do it that way.

 

Mr RAMSAY- By this motion we are going to provide one delegate with the right to vote and put a requirement on the chairman under the rules of debate to consult with that voting delegate as far as possible on the whole management of the meeting. That seems to me to be inappropriate and upsetting the gender balance completely.

 

CHAIRMAN- I think you are now debating the issue rather than speaking to a point of order. I put the motion moved by Mr Muir and seconded by Mrs Jones that the Convention elect a woman as further deputy chairperson.

Motion lost.

 

CHAIRMAN- The next notice of motion with respect to rules of debate is one of which I have received notice from Delegate Mary Kelly, to be seconded by delegate Catherine Moore. I call on Delegate Mary Kelly.

 

Ms MARY KELLY- Thank you, Chairperson. Can I move this in a slightly amended form from the printed version. After the words `That in the running of the Convention the following steps be pursued', I wish to add the words `to ensure as far as possible'. The only other change is in the second dot point. I wish to delete the first three words `working groups and'. Slightly further along in that same line I wish to delete `where possible'. I move:

 

That in the running of the Convention, the following steps be pursued as far as possible:

 

In moving this I acknowledge that these ideas were previously submitted to the chairs and I received their answer last night. In that answer the chairs said that, to the extent that it was within the power of the chair, they would what they could to encourage gender balance in participation by the delegates. I accept that view and believe them, and thank them for that response. The reason for moving it here to is to bring this issue to the attention of all delegates, to talk about why it is important and how it might be pursued not just by the chairs but by us all.

Women's representation here is a huge improvement on the conventions of 100 years ago when no women attended. We have about one-third here, and that is very pleasing. The highest share is amongst the appointed non-parliamentarians, the next highest amongst the elected and the lowest amongst the appointed parliament- in fact, only seven of those 40 being women. So we have a goodly number of women here.

But it is a documented experience of women in public life that, unless you pursue steps to prevent it, in speaking time and positions of influence men will be overrepresented and this will feel normal to most delegates. There are many reasons for this. Some of them are about cultural socialisation, some are about habit, some are about confidence levels. Whatever the reasons, I am sure we all agree that such am outcome is undesirable.

So what does the motion ask us to do? It asks to take steps, firstly, on the Resolutions Committee- probably one of the most influential groups here. It asks for the balance to be 50:50 in that case if we can achieve that. That, you will understand, is more than women's representation inside this House but about right for the women in this country. That will require some effort, I guess, on the part of the chairs, to perhaps solicit nominees where necessary and so on.

The second point asks us to look at speakers. I understand that in informal sessions where people are speaking ex-officio such as this morning this not possible, and every one accepts that, but in many other cases it is possible to encourage people to step aside to do the things that will make the outcomes reasonable for us all. The convenors and working group reporters are really in the hands of us all.

 

CHAIRMAN- I am sorry, your time has expired.

 

Ms MARY KELLY- Can I have a last sentence?

 

CHAIRMAN- Please.

 

Ms MARY KELLY- I want to say in the last sentence that these are not binding numbers but targets to which we should commit as a collaborative endeavour to achieve.

 

Ms MOORE- I will be brief. I would like to reiterate what Mary said. Last week hundreds of women gathered in New Parliament House for the Women's Convention. The overwhelming message was that we are here, we want to be included and, if we are committed to establishing a representative democracy, it is essential that we are given the opportunity to properly participate in decision making processes.

CHAIRMAN- Thank you very much. Any other speakers?

 

Ms THOMPSON- On behalf of the Australian Republican Movement, we are delighted to support this motion. In doing so, we point out that we are the only group here today that has more women than men amongst our numbers. That is something which we are intensely proud of and, in doing so, we went out of our way consciously to ensure that that would happen. We as a group regard gender equity as an important thing. We are delighted to support Delegate Kelly's motion and we commend it to this Convention.

 

CHAIRMAN- Any further comments?

 

Mr JOHNSTON- I speak against this motion. Delegates should be permitted to engage in working groups regarding their interests and what they can contribute to them. They should not be seconded to working groups on the basis of gender. They should be able to move in whatever working groups they choose in consultation with the chair. This Convention is about Australia's political stability, Australia's political future; it is not about an exercise in political correctness.

 

CHAIRMAN- I should point out to Mr Johnston that there have been deletions in respect of working groups in that second dot point.

 

Ms CHRISTINE FERGUSON- I speak against this motion. The women's convention held here in Canberra last week I do not think really speaks for all women. I have great faith in the chair and I am sure that he and his deputy will be very fair in their assessment of who goes on where and who speaks. I oppose the motion.

 

CHAIRMAN- There being no further speakers, I give Delegate Mary Kelly a right of reply.

 

Ms MARY KELLY- In reply, it is important to point out that the support of women at the last week's convention is drawn to your attention simply for what it is- 300 interested women expressing that view- and that this motion binds us all in a collaborative endeavour to try to reach those targets. It does not prohibit anything proceeding if those targets are not reached. I would hope we would all do that anyway, and it would be non-contentious. The opposition suggests that this is not so. So in that spirit of collaborative endeavour I urge your support.

 

CHAIRMAN- The amendment that we are considering reads as follows:

 

That in the running of the Convention,

the following steps be pursued:

 

Motion carried.

 

CHAIRMAN- The next amendment is one from Mr Paul Tully.

 

Councillor TULLY- I formally move:

 

That Constitutional Convention- Rules of Debate Clause 30 be amended to read:

 

CHAIRMAN- Is the motion seconded?

 

Ms MARY KELLY- I second the motion.

 

CHAIRMAN- Do you wish to speak to it, Mr Tully?

 

Councillor TULLY- Yes, please. I will be brief. I believe it is fundamental to the right of any group of delegates in any organisation to have the right of dissent. I would trust that that power will not need to be exercised by delegates over the next 10 days. However, situations could arise that, under the current provisions of rule 30, there would be no procedure or provision for any dissent or for delegates to take any action other than to accept the rulings of the chair. I believe it is a simple proposition. It is a provision which occurs in constitutions and rules of debate of just about every organisation in Australia. I would ask delegates to endorse this simple but fundamental amendment.

 

CHAIRMAN- Delegate Kelly, first of all, do you wish to speak to second the motion?

 

Ms MARY KELLY- Yes, briefly. This does not signal an intention to wantonly dissent from the chair at every opportunity. It simply signals and anticipates the almost certainty that, at some point, someone will want to dissent. We may as well, dare I say, codify a brief and efficient way of dealing with that which I hope will be as infrequent as the chairs do.

CHAIRMAN- I call on Delegate Bernard Wilcox.

 

Mr WILCOX- Mr Chairman and delegates, I oppose this motion for the reason that I think the appointment of this Convention, particularly the appointment of the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman, was very well done. Both are experienced people. Both, I think, are retiring from public life at the end of the term of this parliament. I think they are very good choices.

Mr Chairman, you will recall possibly that I wrote to you and said in my letter in relation to the rules of procedure that I thought you had taken the whole of the authority unto yourself- and you have, to an extent- but I also said, with no disrespect to my fellow delegates, that it is a hotchpotch of representation here and I do not see how we could have any chance at all of getting through the legitimate business of this Convention unless we did have the ruling that a ruling by the chairman on any matter is final. I, therefore, oppose the motion.

 

Ms O'SHANE- I wish to speak in support of the motion. The motion does not imply in any way any disrespect to the chairpersons, Mr Sinclair and Mr Jones. Indeed, we have just been through the process of endorsing, I suppose, that they be the chairpersons. There was no expression of dissent in that, and nor is there in this particular motion. There is absolutely no disrespect intended.

One of the words that I have heard quite a bit in the presentation of addresses this morning is democracy. There has been a great emphasis on the necessity for us to abide by democratic principles and to continue to build a democratic society here in Australia, and I doubt that there is any person within this gathering or beyond it who would cavil with those propositions. This motion is really about broadening the practice of democracy within this Convention. It is for that reason that I support the motion.

 

Mr TURNBULL- The Australian Republican Movement will support the motion. We do so in the belief that there will not be any need for the majority to dissent from the chair. In that respect, the power of the majority to so dissent could be regarded as a reserve power, and this a small example of codification.

 

CHAIRMAN- Does the mover wish to respond?

 

Councillor TULLY- Very briefly, I think it is fundamental, as I said before, that this motion be adopted. Without it, 152 delegates would have less power than the chairperson or the deputy chairperson. I would simply ask delegates to endorse something which is both fair and reasonable.

 

CHAIRMAN- The question is that words be added to the rules of debate, clause 30, relating to a motion of dissent.

Motion carried.

 
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