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TRANSCRIPT OF
PROCEEDINGS
Monday, 2 February 1998
Page 8
Proceedings
suspended from 1.00 p.m. to 2.00 p.m.
CHAIRMAN-
There were two amendments relating to procedures. I call Ms
Sowada.
Ms SOWADA- We
had discussions with Tim Costello over lunch. He has moved a
similar motion and he will be moving his motion with our
amendment.
CHAIRMAN- I
call Tim Costello.
Reverend TIM COSTELLO-
I move:
That the
agenda includes discussion about the process and procedures for
ongoing debate on Constitutional reform which is properly
resources by governments to ensure inclusive community
participation and that a working group be established to make
recommendations for the consideration of the delegates.
This motion, as you
see, asks that in the agenda we discuss the processes and
procedures for ongoing debate and constitutional reform that is
properly resourced by governments to ensure inclusive community
participation, that a working group be established to make
recommendations for the consideration of delegates and that
appropriate time be set aside for these issues on Monday, 9
February and debate at the plenary session on Tuesday, 10
February.
I hope this will be
supported right across the floor. It has already been such a
colourful start that I hope you will say that I want to come back
to another one and hear Phil Cleary's three-quarter time address
and be involved in some of the issues that everybody agreed are
important issues to connect particularly younger people and
ordinary Australians with their Constitution, which I think the
floor clearly said cannot be fitted into the timetable now. This
is a serious mechanism to allow us to timetable it and therefore
to treat it with seriousness and not to marginalise those
concerns which some of us were elected to represent, and we have
already made those speeches. I am very pleased to move this
motion.
Mrs MILNE- Mr
Chairman, it gives me great pleasure to second this motion. As I
said earlier in the day, I think it is critically important going
into the new millennium that all Australians have ownership of
their Constitution. The only way they are going to have ownership
of the Constitution and the changes that need to be made to that
Constitution to reflect the hopes and aspirations of the broader
community is going to be when governments resource a process that
allows for real inclusive community participation and education.
I think that is
terribly important because, in many ways, what we are doing now
is, to a degree, elitist. There has not been much material, if
any, produced in community languages. One of the messages from
the Women's Convention, in particular, was that they want an
ongoing process so that women and men, indigenous people and
ethnic diversity in Australia are represented in discussing what
the Constitution for the next 100 years is going to be. I
strongly support this motion.
CHAIRMAN- Is
there a speaker against the motion?
Mr RUXTON- I
am speaking against the motion. We have been all through this.
This is just another way of getting around it again. As far as
this Convention is concerned, we are discussing those three
issues that you sent out to all delegates in that letter of 8
January. I will not go along with this one.
Ms SOWADA- The
Australian Republican Movement does support this motion. It is
quite clear that the establishment of this convention has
resulted in a great deal of wider debate about other changes to
the Constitution. While we may agree or disagree on the nature of
those changes, it is a good opportunity we think to consider how
these public aspirations may be dealt with by an ongoing process
of debate. We are not proposing any particular amendments that
might be made through a subsequent process but simply setting up
a mechanism by which further debate can take place, at least
setting up a process to discuss how further debate might take
place.
Many of you would
have received a letter in the mail over the last couple of weeks
from the Australian Local Government Association, which has
encouraged us to consider establishing an ongoing mechanism to
allow other important constitutional reform matters to be
adequately addressed. I believe this is a very worthwhile
proposal. We are not in the business of actually proposing any
fresh amendments to the Constitution but looking at how we can
set up a mechanism to ensure that ongoing debate does take place.
I agree with everything that Tim Costello has said and would hope
that the amendment receives the support of delegates.
The Most Reverend
PETER HOLLINGWORTH- I rise to support this motion firmly in
the way that I could not support the previous one before lunch
largely because I think it would have made very serious inroads
into the business of this Convention. I do not think it does this
in this instance- and here I would have to disagree with my
friend Mr Ruxton- because the motion does say that a `working
group be established to make recommendations for the
consideration of the delegates'.
I think that is one
of things I came to this Convention with very strongly in my own
mind. There does need to be a great deal more discussion and
debate. There is widespread ignorance in areas where you would
not expect it. People simply do not know enough about our
Constitution, about our governance. It is a big issue which has
been on the agenda of the Centenary of Federation Council, which
I am proud to serve on. It seems to me that this is one of the
great things that this Convention can do in making some quite
practical recommendations about how we proceed from here. The
notion of community participation is absolutely critical.
I think we are all
influenced by our sons and daughters. One of the great things I
heard over the weekend from my own daughter, who is a legal
officer in a western suburbs city council, was that the council
convened their own constitutional convention a couple of weeks
ago. They got the advice of an expert constitutional lawyer and
academic. They had an excellent discussion. I am sure that such
things have happened in other places. I believe that if that were
part of an ongoing process throughout the nation we would have a
far better informed people.
I think the whole
critical question of participating in our national future and
destiny is of the greatest importance. I would hope that in
tackling it this way those who had proposed the previous motion
before lunch and who are probably disappointed by the outcome
might feel some sense of fulfilment in that.
Brigadier GARLAND-
I speak against the motion on the basis that when this Convention
was set up it was designed to look at three questions. What we
have in the motion that has been put forward is something which
is extraneous to those three questions. Today we have already
wasted nearly an hour talking on extraneous issues. We have not
got down to the meat of the subject. We have already had three
speakers who have been postponed in the 45 minutes prior to
lunch. This sort of issue is an issue to be decided by the
government, not by these delegates. If Delegate Milne and
Delegate Tim Costello want to go outside, set up a soapbox and
shout to everybody around the place, including the media, that is
fine. But I do not believe we should be wasting our time in this
particular forum discussing this issue. It is not part of agenda.
Mr MOLLER- I
rise in support of this motion. We have all agreed that this
Convention is history making. Some of us in this chamber have
more history before us than others. It seems to me that the
Convention has the opportunity to start the ball rolling in the
real education of the Australian people as to their forms of
government and their constitutional systems. A number of people
here are concerned with safeguarding the people. It seems to me
that the more the people can be involved and educated about their
constitutional systems the more they will be able to safeguard
themselves. That is all I have to say.
CHAIRMAN-
Thank you, Mr Moller. I think we might try to put the question.
Otherwise, we will lose more time. Reverend Costello, do you wish
to sum up the debate?
Reverend TIM
COSTELLO- I want to make one very quick comment. I do not
think the founding fathers when they wrote our present
Constitution believed for a moment that it was the last word. I
think they certainly believed that changes would be necessary at
different times. This motion simply gives a mechanism for us to
go on thinking about that. I believe very strongly in
conventions. I congratulate the Prime Minister on calling a
convention rather than it just going to a referendum. I think
this is a very Australian way to get together and talk about the
future. I hope that future mechanisms will include far more
people. That is why I have moved this motion.
CHAIRMAN-
Thank you, Reverend Costello. The amendment to the adoption of
the order of proceedings moved by Reverend Tim Costello reads
`That the agenda includes discussion about the process and
procedures for ongoing debate on Constitutional reform'.
Motion carried.
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